S4xE9: Academic Mentoring with Valerie Taylor
Episode Summary
Dr. Valerie Taylor from Argonne National Laboratory joins us in this episode to talk about mentoring in academia. Mentoring, at its core, starts with asking questions and seeking advice, as opposed to finding a mentor. In this episode, we discuss the ins and outs of mentoring through Valerie’s many amazing stories from her career, from identifying what questions to ask and how to say no.
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Episode Notes
Transcript
[0:00:01] Kristin: Hello and welcome to the CS podcast, a podcast where we talk about teaching computer science with computer science educators. I am your host, Kristin Stephens-Martinez, an Associate Professor of the Practice at Duke University. And joining me today is Dr. Valerie Taylor, Director of the Mathematics and Computer Science Division, an Argonne Distinguished Fellow at Argonne National Laboratory. She’s also a fellow of IEEE, ACM, and AAAS and started CMD-IT that seeks to have computing broadly impact society through proven inclusivity. Her research is in performance analysis and she spent 26 years in academia, where she not only achieved full professor but also took on administrative roles from department head to senior associate dean. She then decided that wasn’t enough and joined the Argonne National Laboratory in 2017. And Valerie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
[0:00:54] Valerie: Thank you, Kristin. It’s a pleasure to be here.
[0:00:58] Kristin: So, Valerie, first, I’d like to ask, how did you get to where you are today with such an amazing bio? I am sure you’ve got stories to tell.
[0:01:07] Valerie: Thank you, Kristin. In terms of my path to how I got to where I am today. Let me start with my route as an assistant professor, and that is after I finished my PhD from UC Berkeley, I started as an assistant professor at Northwestern University. And so I just have to tell you my first year at Northwestern was a big learning curve. During my first year, I presented a paper at Supercomputing conference, and that was in 1991. So some years ago, when I visited, well, not so much visited, but when I was attending Supercomputing, I mentioned to someone that I was starting as an assistant professor at Northwestern University and they said you have got to meet Rick Stevens at Argonne National Laboratory. And I said, oh, I’m happy to, you know, what does he look like? And they said he’s tall, has long hair and I’m going, that’s a lot of people at Supercomputing. So, I, I need a little bit more.
[0:02:15] Kristin: Yes.
[0:02:16] Valerie: And luckily, someone introduced me to Rick, who at that time was starting as the director of the Mathematics and Computer Science Division at Argonne. And so Rick said, “Valerie, why don’t you come out, give a talk, you know, and that way you get to know us better.” So, I was out giving a talk about my research, which at that time had to do with sparse matrices and looking at architectures for sparse matrices. And I just felt like I found my tribe, and that is, it was a community of researchers in computational science. They were looking at architectures, high-performance computing. We had long discussions and soon after that, I had a joint appointment with Argonne. And I enjoyed my teaching. So, I taught on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And then I would go out to Argonne and take my grad students as well. So I was out at Argonne Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays because of the research that I was pursuing. So that was great. And it seems like now I’ve come full circle. Well, now I’m at Argonne full time, and I have a joint appointment at Northwestern as a researcher in terms of a joint center between Argonne and Northwestern.
[0:03:45] Kristin: Cool.
[0:03:46] Valerie: So, it’s really great. And we stayed, all the time I was at Northwestern, I stayed, you know, connected with Argonne when I left Northwestern and went to Texas A&M there, I went as a department head, I still remained in contact with Argonne and I took a sabbatical after stepping down as department head and my sabbatical was at Argonne. So, it’s having those connections caused me to come full circle.
[0:04:16] Kristin: I was curious a little bit about the administrative route, how you transitioned over to it, and then moved around. But I suspect that some of this is going to come up in our conversation because today’s topic is about getting mentored in academia and I invited you to be on the podcast because I loved the keynote that you gave at the CRA mid-career workshop, mentoring workshop that I had attended. And I feel like there is no manual for how to get effective mentoring in academia. And so I was like, I need to make a podcast about this so that people have some idea of how to make this work. So, how about we just start with giving you the floor to talk more about that?
[0:05:08] Valerie: Yes, I am happy to talk about mentoring and also sponsorship. So let me start there just to elaborate a little bit more on the difference between the two. Because mentoring is often where you’re seeking advice from someone and it’s, it’s also a two-way dialogue because the mentor also learns from the mentee, but usually it’s more of an advice, question-answer learning type relationship. The sponsorship occurs when you’re not with that person. And that is the sponsorship involves advocacy where that person is in a room advocating for you and it may be advocating for you to participate on committees. It may be advocating for you in terms of a promotion or advocating for you in terms of a position. But it’s the advocacy that occurs when you are not in the room, and that’s the role of the sponsor. So the sponsor needs to know you so that the sponsor can be engaged in advocating for you.
[0:06:31] Valerie: So doing the CRA-WP workshop, I think for me, mentoring is really important because there’s a lot I don’t know. And I recognize that. And you make a lot of mistakes, but I look at mistakes, you know, people often give the term failure, but I like the term learning opportunity because I look at each failure, each mistake as a learning opportunity. And I go, I have to have a whole bunch of learning opportunities in order to move forward. And that actually motivates me to get out there and to have a voice and know that I’m wrong some of the time and some of the time I’m on target, but I’m constantly learning. And so with mentors, oftentimes in new positions, you recognize that there’s a lot you don’t know. And that’s where a mentor becomes so important. And people often think that yes, if your early career, you need a mentor, but I still have mentors now that I talk to, that I gain advice, ask how to deal with different situations. So mentoring, I look at something as lifelong needs.
[0:08:08] Kristin: Yeah, I think you mentioned this in your keynote about how you need to identify mentoring needs. Right?
[0:08:17] Valerie: Yes. So, for example, when I started as an assistant professor, some of the areas where I recognized I needed help had to do with engaging in research. But also around teaching. So, I had major questions with teaching because here I am a black woman standing in front of a class that’s majority white, majority male. And I realized at that point in time that I had never had a black woman faculty member teach one of my classes throughout my whole higher education career. And so then I was just like, what is this like? And so that’s where it was great at Northwestern. It is you just kind of go I don’t have a mental model. And, and so you you realize the need for role models because role models give you that mental model. And so I went to Janet Rutledge who was a black woman faculty member in EECS at Northwestern. And I was like, Janet, can I be myself, you know?
[0:09:42] Kristin: I can see that.
[0:09:43] Valerie: Yes. And so “Valerie you’re teaching a subject, be yourself, bring yourself to the classroom, talk about your experiences, and have fun with the class.” OK. OK. And I go, she go, “and I was just like, you know, you may be challenged in the class, not so much because they want to know, but because they want to challenge you.” And I said, “So how do you deal with that?” So she said, “the way you deal with it all the time, you answer the questions and for those that require a little more thought, you indicate that’s a really good question. Let me think on it and get back to you tomorrow. And so she just said there’s nothing wrong with saying I need to think on it and get back to you at the next class.” And you do and you start off the next class answering that question. And that made the world of difference. So I, I went into class, I told students about myself, my background, the research that I did, and then we just started in the class and it, it turned out to be a really great experience with my first class and one student came to me afterward. He said, “You know, I have to tell you, I’ve never had a black woman professor before.” I go, “You know, I never had either.” He said, “But this experience was pretty good.” Thank you! Thank you! [Laughter]
[0:11:31] Kristin: Oh, I bet you. He never felt like he had to say that to any of his other male, racial, majority professors. Progress.
[0:11:38] Valerie: It’s, it’s good, you know. Yes and, and I, I want to talk about that too because with mentoring and figuring out the mentors that you need. Is figuring out sometimes it’s the questions that you have because I had more questions about being a black woman in academia that I would often talk with Janet about. And Janet had been in at Northwestern about a year. She arrived a year before I did. Oh OK. But that one year experience, I could go to Janet and go how was this? You know, how did you handle that? And so sometimes Janet would tell me this is what I did but I think this is what you can do better. And, and so you learn from your experiences and, and that’s the value of the ups and downs. Is that you learn from those experiences and you begin to seek others that can help because of their experiences. So I sought Janet, she was in the same department and another black woman. So she would have common experiences as would I, so I could talk to Janet about those experiences.
[0:13:08] Valerie: I also had another mentor, who was a white male in the department and he, we talked about in addition to experiences, we talked about the promotion and tenure process because he was a full professor. And so that was great, but I also sought other women, full professors at other universities in computer science. So, it was, for example, like Janie Irwin. You know, I would often talk with Janie about questions, especially in terms of the academic process, what to expect. You know, I would talk to Janet, I would talk to, it was Jorge Nocedal. A number of different people about the academic ladder.
[0:14:03] Kristin: Yeah. So how did you go about not seeking these mentoring relationships? I think it’s almost like I’m, I’m wondering about the step before where you realized like, how did you realize what kind of people you wanted to reach out to for mentorship? Because like the models that I’ve heard about how to get good mentoring is like you sit down, you figure out your mentoring need, and then you figure out who can fill that need. Is that how you went about it?
[0:14:33] Valerie: That’s the logical steps. I’ll say. But oftentimes when you’re figuring out your needs, it’s, it’s almost a dynamic process. It’s not where per se today, I’m figuring out my needs for the whole year. So, for example, the first time I’m teaching a course, and I’m preparing the material, all these questions are coming to mind. And that’s when I realized I needed to talk to Janet. So it was probably, I went to talk to Janet, and it was probably about two weeks before my teaching because I, I’m sitting down doing my outline for my course and preparing my materials, you know, for the semester, and all of these questions pop up. So I found for me, it is a dynamic process that when I’m going through an experience, and I’m having and I’m preparing for that experience and I have all these questions. That’s when I realize that mentoring is needed. So, for example, you know, recognizing that, you know, the mentoring came from Janet came from Jorge came from Janie. It’s not where one day I figured out that I needed Janet, Jorge, and Janie, it was where when I was teaching, I went, I went upstairs to Janet. And I was just like “Janet!” and Janet and I kept talking about it.
[0:16:08] Kristin: Is there a way to be more strategic though about getting mentored? Because I feel like some people, some people get lucky or instinctually know to do it, and others kind of like, wonder why they feel like no one’s talking to them.
[0:16:22] Valerie: Well, I think when you’re feeling like no one’s talking to you, then that’s a good time to evaluate who would be a good mentor. Like what if I want to get out of the mentor? But know that what you want to get out of the mentor can change over time. And so you, if you’re feeling like, you know, I, I’m, I’m struggling, and I don’t know what, how to be strategic to actually get into a good path. Then I go, I go to asking questions and that is OK, what do I think I need to know and who are some good people that have that information? And then I go, do I know those people directly? And if I don’t know them directly, then I say, do I know someone who knows them directly? And, they can serve as the introduction. So I, I never do a cold ask of someone and say that’s a good person I want them to be my mentor. I’m just gonna ask them if I don’t know them or I have not had a situation where we have a one-on-one meeting. Then I go through someone else and oftentimes, I may ask someone, is it OK if I ask you a few questions about this topic as a starting point to mentoring.
[0:18:03] Kristin: Yes. Do you actually say the word mentoring or are you just like I have some questions that I love your thoughts on or something like that?
[0:18:10] Valerie: Right. I just start with, I have some questions and I go just a few. You know, one or two questions that I would really value your feedback based on your experiences.
[0:18:22] Kristin: Ok. Very early in our conversation, you mentioned something about sponsorship and I definitely want to make sure we talk about that and, I had a thought while you were talking about sponsorship that made me realize that they are yes different and at the same time similar because a sponsor can be much more effective when they’re also kind of a mentor because by being someone you go to, to ask questions to and talk about how things are going it is much easier for them to be a sponsor for you in the rooms that you can’t be in. Does that make sense?
[0:18:56] Valerie: That makes sense, but I’m going to push back and disagree. And that is from what I found that is, sponsors are really busy. And they’re often on a number of committees. And so the people that I have identified as my sponsor are not my mentors. And here’s the part, sponsors will often seek you out.
[0:19:30] Kristin: Interesting.
[0:19:31] Valerie: Yes. And, but when you need a sponsor, oftentimes I go through the mentor to get that sponsor.
[0:19:41] Kristin: Ok.
[0:19:42] Valerie: So I, I found two pathways to get sponsors. I go through a mentor or sometimes a sponsor will seek me out. And, so one example was that, you know, when you’re looking at the promotion and tenure process? I know that they value being on editorial boards or journals for publications and being on program committees. And so I talked to my mentor, I said, “OK, how do you get to be on editorial boards, you know, program committees, et cetera?” And so he said, “they get to know your work,” like as you published in a conference, usually people who consistently publish in a conference, those are the people that are asked to be on program committees or someone can recommend you. So there was this one conference I really wanted to get on the program committee for that conference, but my mentor was not really engaged in that conference. And so he goes, but I have a buddy who is. And so that person became my sponsor to be on that committee. And a few other committees related to computer architecture. And so, you know, that’s an example where I went through my mentor because I, I’m seeing some things that are needed, but I don’t know how to get there.
[0:21:29] Valerie: And, and that’s the question you ask yourself, do I know how to get there? And oftentimes when you’re feeling no one’s talking to me, I don’t know how to get there. I go. OK. Where do I want to be? And who’s there? Do I know somebody that knows somebody that knows these people that are there? Yeah. So that’s where the strategy comes in because identifying those people for which in a room with a closed door, your name is mentioned. And there are sometimes where you don’t know but people are watching. OK.
[0:22:16] Kristin: Not Big Brother style, I assume.
[0:22:19] Valerie: Right? But they’re watching. So, for example, you, you know, what was it? Early in my career, I, I served on some, CRA-W, it was at that time, CRA-W early career panels. And I was telling someone I go, you know, I take time for myself to go to the gym and I said it, it keeps me balanced where I don’t feel so stressed. And I said I just have to stop and go to the gym. And I said, you know, what I realized that if I worked 25 hours. It’s the next day. And I said, so I can either have the next day. Well, I’m starting fresh, you know, and feeling good or I can have the next day when I’m just tired and don’t know what to do. So, I choose to start the day feeling fresh and, you know, like I’ve done some things for myself, which means the previous day I have to stop the work and go, “I’m going to work out.” Then I feel good. The blood is flowing. You know, I’m having fun. I’m not thinking about, you know, performance analysis. What worked, what didn’t. I’m just trying to get through the next step and not fall out. So it makes it fun. Yes. And I, and so serving on those panels, I didn’t know that Fran Allen. And so Fran Allen is a Turing Award recipient and she passed away, but she did a lot in programming languages. And she used to be at IBM. And she did a lot with compilers. And so Fran Allen right after I got tenure. She called me up and asked me to be on the program committee for the Grace Hopper Conference. OK. Fran Allen. She goes, “Yeah, this is Fran Allen.” I was like the Fran Allen. “Yeah, this is Fran Allen.” I go, you wanna talk to Valerie? She goes, you know, I guess Fran is like, “yeah.” I was like, oh, ok. Oh, thank you Fran Allen. She goes, would you like to be on, you know, the Grace Hopper Program Committee? Of course, I’m going. Who says no to Fran Allen? She goes, “I know you just got tenure.” I was like, wow, you’re good.
[0:25:06] Kristin: She’s been paying attention,
[0:25:08] Valerie: Right. They do.
[0:25:10] Kristin: So, it it sounds like from your lived experience that it’s this combination of you have mentors and you approach them, not really like thinking you’re gonna be my mentor or anything like that. But more form, like I have questions and I think this person can answer those questions for me. And if you already know them, you just email them and or message them in some way and ask them. But if you don’t know them, you, you go through someone that you do know that does know them. And then after you get your questions answered, there’s also the aspect of like, just do a really good job and make sure you somehow are able to say no to the things that you won’t be able to do a good job at and focus on the things you’ll be able to do a good job with. And how do you, I’m trying to think of a question that would best help someone who feels like they’re floundering. And so I think what I’m going to ask is let’s say you’ve tried all that, you’ve tried asking questions, got the answer from a mentor. But you still feel like you, like, you feel like you’re doing a good job in what you’re doing and you feel like you’re doing all the things but nothing’s happening. Like what do you do then?
[0:26:22] Valerie: OK. So here’s a couple of things. One thing is I never just had one mentor. I have a few people that I may ask. And so I think of having a circle of mentors and they may not say I might look at them as a mentor. If you call them up and then you say, “Are you a mentor to Valerie?” They may say no. So we don’t have, it’s not I, I consider them a mentor because of the information I’m getting. But I, I get questions answered. They go, yeah, I asked, you know, she asked me questions and I answer them, see, I consider that mentoring. So I don’t always approach it as you’re my formal mentor. OK. And so you know, and I, I ask a few people.
[0:26:17] Kristin: OK. So it’s not just like you’re not thinking it from the framework of I’m looking for mentors and talking to them. It’s really just I have questions, I’m going to reach out through my network and get answers to those questions and you’re not putting all your eggs in one basket and you’re spreading to multiple people to see if you can also get multiple opinions because probably that is also very useful.
[0:27:36] Valerie: Yes. And if I feel like I’m floundering, where I’m not getting what I need, let’s say to go to be full professor. I’m wondering why no one is putting me up for full professor. I may go to friends who are full professors at other universities. Because I, I may not want people to know at my university. So I may go at other universities and ask the question. Do you think I’m ready to go up for full professor? Or, for example, if I see where all my friends are getting awards. And I ask why aren’t I getting some awards or recognitions? Ok, so then I may take a good friend who has received awards and say, you know, what can I be doing to move, better move in that position? And then they may tell me you need to stop waiting for somebody to come to you and for you to reach out to somebody about nominating you. Kind of go, oh, so I’m supposed to reach out to people and they go, “Yes.” So, you know, because that’s what happened. There’s no group that’s saying this person should go for an IEEE fellow. Sometimes you have to reach out to someone who is an IEEE fellow that, you know, and go, do you think I’m ready for IEEE fellow or what parts should I work on? And so I did that and, and so one person said you’re long overdue. OK. And I’ll work on your nomination. And they worked on my nomination. So, the thing about it is sometimes you think like in your department that, you know, the faculty will look at how I’m doing and then move me forward and the faculty are working on their research and they’re not looking at anybody.
[0:29:52] Kristin: Sometimes that’s true. Everyone’s busy,
[0:29:56] Valerie: Right. They’re not looking at anybody and sometimes you have to take it upon yourself to go knock on somebody’s door and go. Can you help me with this?
[0:30:06] Kristin: So what if say you’re, you know, fresh out of grad school? And so you just got your first job, and you’re probably feeling like in this day and age, very grateful for having gotten the job and everything. And how do you go about starting to make progress towards reaching out to people asking questions, getting like realizing, I feel like as if you’re straight out of grad school, you might be wondering what even the questions that I should be asking or like what questions should I ask myself to generate the questions to then go to a mentor and ask them those questions? Like, how do you start? Where, where’s the bootstrapping part of this whole process?
[0:30:45] Valerie: So I think the bootstrapping process comes from the questions that you have. So, if you’re asking the question, like, for example, when I first started at Northwestern, you know, you, it’s, it’s a lot to get used to. And so the first thing I started with was OK, I have to teach. So, you know, because that’s what hits you when you first walk in is you have to teach. And so then you start to go OK, I have a, I don’t even know where to start, you know, you have to do your course syllabus. So then I went to talk to someone about, you know, a course syllabus and what needs to be included. And, and so I had to talk to a few people.
[0:31:31] Valerie: So, you start off first, I think with things that are near-term. What is it? You have to, what is it you have to do that first year? And because sometimes you may start off saying, OK, let me look at the promotion and tenure process and I go first, I need to get through the I was like, I need to get through the first month. So I, I just go by, what is it I need to get through in its first semester. Just where I’m getting to know people and then I, I would go to faculty meetings and I didn’t say anything and a person asked me, they said, well, why don’t you say anything in a faculty meeting? I said, because I’m getting to know the environment. So, I’m in a, in an observer mode right now. That’s what I feel comfortable with. So, I’m going to observe before I just come out and ask a whole bunch of questions. And I go, that’s what I feel comfortable doing. So I have to do what’s comfortable for me.
[0:31:41] Kristin: So here, here’s a harder question and, and, and I this is not about me but it is about so, so I, I am going to conglomerate multiple people in this question. So let’s say someone in a position of power, like your chair comes up to you and says you need to X and you don’t wanna do X, what do you do? Because like this is a moment, I think where mentors can be very useful. But if you’re very new to the department, you potentially don’t know anyone enough to ask to be more vulnerable with going like I don’t want to do X that the person in power just told me to do like what, what do you do in that situation?
[0:33:20] Valerie: So someone taught me how to say no. And they said the best way to do that and see this was a mentoring. They said you talk about what’s currently on your plate. So if they asked me to do X and I don’t want to do it, I go, “OK, thank you so much for asking. I go, here’s what I’m working on right now. I’m working on this. I’m, you know, I’m, I’m preparing my course and this is a big start up because I’m incorporating new tools into the course. So I need significant time here. Then I’m just starting with my grad students. And so that’s a big ramp-up as well. And I’m also serving on this program committee for this conference. So in order to do well, at what you asked, I need to take something off my plate. If you can help me identify what is it I need to take off my plate so I can do that. I would very much appreciate it.”
[0:34:25] Kristin: I think that’s a great way to say no, but I think my question was more. How do you know that it’s OK to say no? Does that make sense?
[0:34:34] Valerie: How do you evaluate when to say no?
[0:34:37] Kristin: Yeah. How do you evaluate that? Because I think that the, the way you suggested to say no is great and it’s a, it’s a great if you have that level of like self self-efficacy for yourself with the person in power. But if you’re so new to the department, you might not even know that X is actually normal and potentially is something that everyone does. Like how like and often, especially if you’re in a step-down position, you think, oh if, if the person in power is asking me to do X, it must be a normal thing that everyone says yes to. So how do you assess that piece before you potentially go to the chair or whoever and say this is my gentle no.
[0:35:23] Valerie: Well, you could do a few things. So if they ask you to do something, you can say, “Oh, thanks for asking. Can I let you know tomorrow?”
[0:35:32] Kristin: Yes, of course. Definitely.
[0:35:34] Valerie: So you delay it. So your answer and so you, you and then you go and ask a few people. What does this ask involve? Yeah, because it may be where you don’t wanna do it but it gives you great visibility. Like, for example, um what was it one time I was asked to serve on a provost search committee. Before I knew what a provost was,
[0:36:06] Kristin: I feel like I still don’t know. But that’s, that’s a conversation for another day.
[0:36:11] Valerie: So, so, you know, I, I was just like, and, you know, in my mind I’m thinking I do not want to serve on another search committee. And so I did say, “Can I let you know tomorrow?” And so the person’s like, oh, sure, I said, because I just want to, and I just use, I want to make certain I have sufficient time. And that’s what I used. And so then I went to talk to some people, and I go, you know, is this something I should do? And a person was like, you know, the provost is like the vice president of a company. So you have the president of the university. The second in line is the provost. And I was like, why don’t they just call it the vice president of the university? They go, there’s nothing that simple but the provost is the vice president of the university. I go, oh, and they go. So if you’re on the provost search committee, it means you’re gonna have time with the president of the university and you’re gonna get to know all of these other vice presidents as well because they’re gonna be involved in the interviews.
[0:37:26] Valerie: So this, so they usually on the Provost search committee, they like to have all levels. Early career, faculty, all the way up the ladder. And they said, so the person told me, so this is a good committee for you to be on, you know, because of the exposure I was like, oh, and he goes, and you need to do a good job. So we, and, and so then I was like, OK, can you help me? You know, he said, and you know, to determine how do I evaluate applications? And he said your committee is going to do that, you know, your committee will come up with the evaluation criteria. And he said, you know, your perspective as an early career, he said, you may not see the impact, the direct impact of the provost, but you’ll get a chance to learn the indirect impacts of the provost. I go, oh, so yeah, so I took that day. So sometimes, when you don’t know, you buy yourself time and then you ask people,
[0:38:41] Kristin: OK. And so, and I assume part of it was also not just is this worth doing, but also what amount of time commitment does this entail? And then that can help you evaluate and then go to potentially using the more gentle no if it turns out like either you need to re-evaluate what I’m supposed to do so I can do this new thing or you should need to tell me that this new thing is not as important,
[0:39:04] Valerie: Right. And that that person serving on that Provost committee, he said it’s going to take time. So you should ask, you know, to be off these other committees in the department.
[0:39:16] Kristin: Yes. OK.
[0:39:18] Valerie: I go, oh, so then I was like, thank you!
[0:39:23] Kristin: Oh, you know, that’s good mentoring there right there too. And you’re like, oh, by the way, this thing I’m asking you to do, you should also then turn to someone else and say, take this off my plate.
[0:39:31] Valerie: Right! So, and, and that’s where I, I just look at mentoring as asking questions of people. So I have a lot of informal mentors that you know, this list where I don’t abuse it. But I, I may go once a year and ask some questions and I have a list where I can go a little more often and ask questions.
[0:39:59] Kristin: Do you actually have a list or is it more just like the rolodex in your head that you just kind of hold on to?
[0:40:06] Valerie: It’s, it’s more I haven’t written it down but I have it in my head.
[0:40:08] Kristin: OK. I have, I’ve asked that person too recently. So I’ll ask a different person this question.
[0:40:12] Valerie: Yes!
[0:40:14] Kristin: OK. OK. I just like to a certain extent, I kind of want like I want the full exactly how do you do this? Because as someone who’s only been in this career for seven years, I’m like, I need more information now that I’m an associate and I also just agreed to be the associate director undergraduate studies in the department. So I’m like, I need more information. I feel too new to do this.
[0:40:36] Valerie: Right. And so then is asking people who did that position before?
[0:40:40] Kristin: Yeah.
[0:40:42] Valerie: You know, and, and it, it was interesting because one time when I was an associate professor I asked, I was invited to be the associate dean of the grad school. Ok. And I was like, wow, I got, I don’t know if that’s good or not. So I asked about five people. The question. And, and I, I got to know a lot too by the answers. Because most people told me they said, “No, don’t do it. Because it’s not going to, when you go out for full professor, they will not count it.” And, and they said they will say they will but they won’t, you know, because this was at the university level and they go, they’re not going to count it because the committee that’s evaluating you is in the department and the department cares about departmental committees. They don’t care about university. So, but then I asked one person who said you should definitely do it and I go “huh” and that, that let me know their perspective. And they said this can help you with administrative positions. And I said, what about going up for full? And they said they, they, they likely would count it, and I go, you kinda go, so that person, I didn’t ask them more questions about administrative positions.
[0:42:11] Kristin: Ok. So the five people that you asked, I, it sounds like some of them were in the department probably, and some people were not in the department or maybe even were they outside of your school or were you more focused on people who were, like inside the school, who more were like in the know of how your school worked?
[0:42:26] Valerie: I, I asked both in and out. So this one person was a dean at another institution and I asked him, we, we happen to be serving on a committee together. And so I was saying, you know, and we just talked a lot on the committee because we were writing the report and I said, do you mind if I ask you a question because you’re a dean and, and, you know, you would have this perspective. And so I asked him the question and he was like, “Don’t do it. No.” So, you know, I was like, oh OK, he goes, I’m just gonna, he goes, “Ad I’ll tell you why.” And, and he was, he was very direct and to the point it was just like a five-minute conversation, but he just said, no, no, no. You know, you kind of go “Okay thank you!”
[0:43:23] Kristin: Did you do it in the end?
[0:43:24] Valerie: No.
[0:43:26] Kristin: OK. [laugh]
[0:43:27] Valerie: And I called him back and I told him. Thank you. I mean, he was very direct. He, and he said, you know, no one cares about that position at the university level. He goes, no, he said, and they’re gonna tell you they’re going to decrease and he was very direct. They will tell you they will decrease your teaching. He said, but it’s 100% position. The they’re not telling you and they’re saying it’s 25-50%. He goes, but what, what are you gonna do when you have a whole bunch of problems coming to you from all across the university related to the grad school? Are you going to say I’m sorry, I can’t because I’m only 25% time. He goes… I was just like, oh, I hadn’t thought about that. He goes “yah… NO.”
[0:44:21] Kristin: I, I feel like certain positions. It’s always like it’s for the students, think of the children and like give your all and not just your all past your all. And I’m like, [deep breath], OK.
[0:44:33] Valerie: You know, I, I feel like it’s like the plane but they say put your mask on first.
[0:44:39] Kristin: Yes. Yes. Put your mask on first.
[0:43:42] Valerie: Right. Because if you’re out of air, you can’t help anybody else.
[0:43:48] Kristin: Yep. So, I want to be careful of time you mentioned that you want to emphasize about team effort and that kind of thing. Do you still want to try and like work that into the conversation?
[0:44:58] Valerie: I do. OK. So here’s a part to mentoring that I want to bring up. And that is when you look at for in academia where you’re focused on research, teaching and service. Mhm. And I just wanna take note that all three aspects really involve a team effort. And that is research. You’re often looking at collaborations in teaching you’re often taking advantage of those who have taught before you and leveraging their experiences and materials. And then service, you’re often working on a committee. And so in that team effort comes the opportunity for informal mentoring, as well. That is so important because I feel like in academia when you write up your teaching statement or your research statement or your service statement, you’re saying I, I, I and they don’t want you to say “we” because they want you to say what you accomplished as an individual.
[0:46:14] Valerie: But the reality is teaching research and service are team efforts. So it’s fine to reach out to others and don’t think you have to do it by yourself. So reach out to others because it is definitely a team effort, and know that you will have learning experiences, or some people call failures, I call learning experiences that will result throughout life. I still have learning experiences. We all make mistakes, and that’s a part of learning. But to definitely use those experiences as opportunities to reach out to ask questions and gain that informal mentoring or formal mentoring or informal sponsorship or formal sponsorship. But to know that it is not something you’re in alone.
[0:47:20] Kristin: I, I think I also appreciate your point in that one way to, to get access to more people that you could ask like more mentoring questions to and such is by joining these kinds of teams.
[0:47:32] Valerie: Yes.
[0:47:34] Kristin: So I think we will wrap this up here with too long, didn’t listen. TLDL, what would you say is the most important thing that you would want our listeners to get out of our conversation?
[0:47:46] Valerie: The important thing to get out of this conversation is that mentoring starts with a question. So, asking questions of others provides informal mentoring. So, I would say look at the mentoring relationships that you have, whether it’s formal or informal and it all starts with questions.
[0:48:12] Kristin: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Valerie.
[0:48:15] Valerie: My pleasure.
[0:48:16] Kristin: And thank you for listening. If you think this episode will be useful to someone, please share it with them. You can also support us to make more content like this through Patreon. Our patrons help keep this podcast ad-free and pay for production. So, a special thank you to three random patrons: Susan Rodger, Mark Guzdial, and Vanessa Coote. And with that this was the CS-Ed Podcast hosted by me, Kristin Stephens-Martinez, and produced by Chris Martinez. And remember teaching computer science is more than just knowing computer science. And I hope you found something useful for your teaching today.